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Author Topic: Annoying Newb questions...  (Read 1058 times)

Slink

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Annoying Newb questions...
« on: May 24, 2010, 07:21:38 PM »

I'm new to kitted bikes, And Non-SHA carbs. I need a little feed back... Here's what I got;

70cc treats reed kit w/ Hi-Comp. head
4 petal malossi reed block
Techno Boss
19mm PHGB Knockoff
     92 Main jet.
     ?? Idle jet (it's not labeled, It's a Knock Off!)
     ?? Needle (no label. YAY!) set right in the middle.

It starts right up, but idles poorly. The first part of the throttle is sputtery and feels starved. At about half throttle it feels fine all thje way up to WOT (which I've been trying to stay away from). Is a 92 a good place to start? Where should I start with the Idle jet? I was thinking around 45. Should I get a diff. needle? Where should I set my mixture screw? When can I rip?

Help a brother out, I'm here to learn.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 07:33:19 PM by 5L1NK3R »
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2010, 07:35:50 PM »

you want some good advise?

get rid of that carb.

Dellorto's are expensive for a reason, and its a good one.

secondly, we measured that boss pipe,  figured exactly when your motor would be "getting on the pipe", and it's at about 12,000 rpm

you would be doing yourself a BIG favor by throwing that thing in the trash (where it belongs)

DO however get ahold of a Techno Estorill, proma circuit, Technigas next, simini or other similarly dimensioned pipe.

these start working at a much lower, and wider power-band.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2010, 08:21:56 PM »

Okay, I'll just throw it all away. Thanks for your help.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2010, 08:53:43 PM »

what is your plug looking like? sputtery in the beginning could be your idle jet, john (last i heard) had some idle jets and needles. turn in your idle mix screw and see if it reacts better or worse. if its still boggy and super rich with the mix screw (the smaller screw that you ((usually)) need a screwdriver or dime to turn) all the way in, then you need a smaller jet. and of course vice versa at the other end of the spectrum.

your pipe should do just what you want to do with it and maybe it wont, but it sounds like youre not looking for flawless "race" specs here. just something different than stock or the bat.
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Garett

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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2010, 09:04:21 PM »

One thing that has helped me is putting marks on my throttle so I can see exactly what throttle range I am at.

Adjust the screw that opens the slide so the slide is down as far as it goes.  Then make the marks for 0, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 7/8, and full throttle.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2010, 11:18:23 PM »

http://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/PHBG_tuning_made_easy._%28a_step_by_step_guide%29
http://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/How_To_Tune_PHBG_Carburetors

The way I was taught to do it (by a vintage vespa mechanic) is this...
Assuming you start your bike and it idles...

NEEDLE
Pull out main jet (yes, entirely)
Adjust needle to middle clip (if you don't have a middle clip, do 3rd from top so it's middle, but rich)
get bike running
rev from 1/4 to 3/4 throttle (after 3/4 throttle your main comes into play significantly and your bike will just bog and die)
from 1/4 -> 3/4 throttle the response should be super crisp and rev, then fall flat on it's ass. if it's gurgly upto 3/4 throttle adjust or change needle appropriately, if it's revin high and soundin lean, adjust accordingly.

Once needle is dialed in, move to idle circuit.

IDLE this is the part that will take you the longest, from my experience
set idle screw so back wheel just barely spins. Yay
with throttle open at 1/8 do the following:
turn air mixture screw all the way in, and back off in 1/4 turns.
between 1 1/4 & 2 1/4 turns your bike should have hit it's peak RPM. if it kept revving and revving after 2 1/4 you're lean, if it died out before 2 1/4 turn, your rich... adjust accordingly.

after you have the air mixture screw set, adjust your idle so that you have the best consistent idle with the back wheel just barely spinning
So, from closed throttle to 3/4 (main jet is still out) you should have a super crisp super poppy rev.

MAIN
Put in a main jet. Just pick one, any one (aim high).
from 3/4 -> 7/8 your bike should continue to rev, no gurgling, no bogging. from 7/8 -> WOT it should plateau.
if it cuts out, it's lean, if it gurgles, it's rich.

All of this is dependent though on the fact you have proper timing, no airleaks, no case leaks, and no seal issues.

Boom. Took me about 3 hours to perfectly dial in my last bike.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 11:21:12 PM by Tom! »
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2010, 11:31:40 PM »

Maybe Justin will pitch in, but if I remember correctly, he had crazy issues tuning his knock-off on his 50cc kit because of the needle or something. It might not be a bad idea to replace the un-labeled jets (particularly idle) and the needle with official Dellorto parts, just so you have something to go off of when you need to tune those parts. Other than all of that, I think 92 sounds reasonable as a place to start. You might ask Kenden what he was running though, since he had a very similar setup.
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Garett

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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2010, 08:45:18 AM »

You are going to need to see if the idle jets and needle are compatible though.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2010, 09:49:28 AM »

Yeah I ordered a mess of Dell jets and needles...  I guess I can dial in the timing while I wait for parts to arrive.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2010, 03:07:58 PM »

Alright Slinker I destroyed my treats reed kit on friday, So now its all up to you to wail that baby to the moon and back, I believe in you. DO IT!!
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2010, 12:18:12 PM »

Okay, well...

The Boss is fine. For some reason Matt hates it after his maths project went wrong. It's a fine pipe, it'll hit around 8k and pull to the rev ceiling of your cylinder. It's got a big header, which lets it rev and rev; but, you'll lose some power compared to, say, a Simonini, simply because the Boss is a fairly cheap pipe. You've probably noticed it's only got two cones (limiting the ability to accurately define a powerband); and the header doesn't have much of a taper, as well as having a small chamber diameter with no dwell section, which reduces the amount of scavenge you'll get from the pipe. That's fine, because the transfers on that cylinder are a little small.

As Kenden would tell ya, the best pipe for that cylinder is the Simonini. He had that, along with a 19?mm PHBG, Malossi reeds, and hit 58. I'd guess you'd hit at least 50 comfortably with a Boss. Don't get any circuit pipe, or Estoril, unless you're okay with your cylinder running out of steam at 45. I mean, yeah, it'll hit 50-something eventually with those pipes, it's just not quite the ride that a higher RPM pipe would give you. You WILL need to get a good clutch, no matter what pipe. Also, buy a CDI as soon as you can afford it. Matt hates those too, he'll tell ya all about it, but the Cold Trailers have had nothing but success with the Hero CDI. I'm sure you're close to somebody with a timing light that'd love to help you with it.

PHBGs are FANTASTIC carburetors. They're a little sensitive, but they will get you going fast. There's a reason all those 2t Scooter teams love Dellorto. For example, Sue in Louisville went 70 on her MK80 with a 21mm PHBG, while there are a LOT of people with 24mm Mikunis on the same cylinder that aren't going as fast. The PHBG knockoffs are, well, knockoffs. They perform fine, mine just started falling apart after about a year. I only paid $30 for it though, so I didn't care. It still worked fine. Check your atomizer, mine had the 4t version, but it never really bothered me much until I got REALLY anal about tuning. BUT, if you're leaving the knockoff atomizer in it, DON'T change the needle. Tuning problems abound if you do that, at least that's what happened to me. You SHOULD get a set (for your cylinder) of genuine Dellorto main and idle jets. I'd say buy a range from 85-100 for your main, and 35-45 for your idle, for that cylinder. That way you'll have some extras, just in case you change your setup in a couple months.

If you need help tuning, Kenden is probably the best person to ask about that setup, or feel free to shoot me an email, or just figure it all out yourself. I'm sure we'd all love to see you up and running.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 12:20:25 PM by GARzan Justin »
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2010, 02:00:19 PM »

I added a 70mm dwell section into my Boss and I thought it made the pipe ALOT better.

Powerband hit harder, stayed longer, and resonated with my stock ported cylinder alot nicer. A good upgrade IMHO if you have the ability and the pipe.

Also, Justin. Great post.

As for cheap kits, that reed setup looks alot nicer and I've rea much better reviews of it.

Treats CDI: a decent upgrade, especially for the price. I think it should be treated/thought more as a points replacement, but it does give a slight curve. I personally feel like a lot of people are using them instead of learning how to properly tune a points system, which makes me sad.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2010, 02:32:28 PM »

I would run a CDI over points any day.  Tuning points is easy, but keeping it running 100% without constant cleaning and fiddling is near impossible.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2010, 02:36:08 PM »

What's to tune with points?  A little fine adjustment with the point gap?  I don't see any downside to the cheap CDI.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2010, 02:52:23 PM »

condensers. ALWAYS going out on me.
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Mike Pee

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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2010, 02:55:15 PM »

External condenser + a spare in your bag = happiness

But really...HPI
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Slink

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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2010, 03:14:34 PM »

Thanks for all yr help and suggestions. I'll have this bike up and running in no time. I'm so close...
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2010, 03:28:17 PM »

External condenser + a spare in your bag = happiness

Hero CDI + setting it once and forgetting about it = happierness

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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2010, 03:50:06 PM »

i think maluguti mike put it to me best about points and cdis "why would anyone use 30+ year outdated points, which NOTHING uses anymore not even weed whackers, when we could use CDIs?
ps i have always/only used the knockoff 19mm del clones and have no problems what so ever. i am kinda a tuning slacker and never fuck with any jets/screws other than my main jet and idle screw. 94 jet, idles and plug looks good. why take it all apart first.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2010, 03:54:10 PM »

maluguti put it to me best
Malaguti's a fart smeller.

..er.. Smart feller.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2010, 03:56:05 PM »

Points systems are Intricate and delicate. They are a reliable system if properly tuned.

I feel like buying a cheap CDI an never properly learning te electrical system that came on your bike is just the same as throwing away a stock cylinder, stock 2-shoe/variator. Fast parts aren't neccesary for fast bikes.

It's annoying that we have $99 kits, CDIs, and pipes. People aren't forced to deal with their parts for a time while waiting to afford the next piece. It makes you a better tuner, I feel, if you know your bike inside and out. The same problems come up on stock systems as they do on kitted systems, they just happen faster on kits. Unlearned folks blow alot of nice parts up because they just built it in a hurry.

That rant being said, I don't think we should go back to hving to import everything from 50cc.nl 
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2010, 04:00:23 PM »

Refrigerators still use points in their defrost timers.

Don't you want to be fast like a refrigerator?
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2010, 04:03:16 PM »

Unlearned folks blow up nice parts
I'm okay with that. Keeps the aftermarket alive.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2010, 09:52:25 PM »

This bike feels pretty fukkin quick. I like it. I can't wait to open it up and see where it will take me.

However, I do NOT like the Malossi reed block housing. Soft bullshit pot-metal. Already stripped it out, tapped it up to m6 and stripped one hole again. It's not leaking now but I'm sure it will eventually. So how does heli-coil work?

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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2010, 09:26:15 AM »

Okay I have a few more questions. This bike runs now. I have it jetted and set up to be a bit rich and my plugs look like the rich side of okay. It idles fine and moves up to speed okay, but when I cruise at any length with the throttle open it dies out on me. I have to pull over and choke it to get it going again. I checked it up and down for leaks at the base, head, exhaust, and intake. Do I have a case or seal leak? Am I draining the floatbowl? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2010, 09:33:55 AM »

Does feel like power surges at WOT?  If so, that's lean.

I'd guess at upping the main jet and trying again.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2010, 09:38:48 AM »

No surges of power. Just even running, then sputtering. If I choke in time I can save it. I'll upjet and see what happens though...

How do I even spot a bad seal or leaky case?
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2010, 09:45:44 AM »

Internal e50 case/seal leak: Blow tons of white smoke, loss of power
You can test the flywheel side one by spraying just like how you check for other leaks...but it's hard.  Also, make sure your points don't spark before you do this.  FLAMEZZZ
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2010, 01:52:37 PM »

I can't find any leaks. Seems tight all around.
I had a thought though.... Could it be the condensor?
When I start it cold it runs fine for a while. At High RPM it craps out. After it has crapped out it gets harder and harder to restart.
Could I just slap an external condensor by the coil and leave the bum one (if that's what it is) in place? Or would it be better to pull the old one out of the circuit?
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2010, 02:38:46 PM »

Hm, yeah, maybe it's time to retire the points?
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2010, 02:47:05 PM »

do it! let me help! i needs to up my cdi know hows!
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2010, 02:56:53 PM »

Anyone got CDI stuff they wanna sell? I'd love to learn CDI stuff as well.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2010, 07:36:48 PM »

treatland.tv sells CDIs for 75 bucks.  i don't know that there is much to learn, but yeah.
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2010, 05:12:48 PM »

Okay, I'm real close on this then I can bug out on something else... But until then: ONE MORE POST.

I have a real dellorto 19 now. 60 starter 45 idle 89 main W7 set at the leanest. It four strokes at WOT I back off a bit and it zips. I put in an 88 main and it leaned out at WOT. So help me to understand the needle numbering scheme. I think 89 is where I wanna be as far as my main, is there a needle change that might help me out? Could I go with the 88 and a richer needle setting. I feel like I'm so close!
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Re: Annoying Newb questions...
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2010, 06:25:53 PM »

Is your carb opening fully?

Needle really isn't in affect at WOT. A lot of people actually end up seizing kits because running a too lean of needle and a too rich of main jet.

Usually though, considering if all is sealed properly, you can go two sizes leaner from 4-stroking.
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