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Author Topic: shooting last night?  (Read 835 times)

ezbngreen

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ire mark

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2009, 10:53:46 AM »

good riddance!!!
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Forrest

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2009, 03:30:26 PM »

good riddance!!!

It is nice to see that the copper landed several hits.  Too many times the paper says, "17 shots were fired and the suspect fled the scene."
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Mike Pee

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2009, 03:40:36 PM »

StL cops are only required to shoot 50 rounds as their annual training.  It's surprising they hit anything...ever.
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Phil N.

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2009, 03:45:46 PM »

Yeah I heard about this on the news, craziness!
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Lunch Box

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2009, 03:50:13 PM »

"One of them stopped when officers approached, but the other ran around a corner, police said. That man allegedly was holding his waistband and retrieved a gun. Officers saw him try to fire it, but it apparently jammed, police said, and he kept hitting it in an effort to clear the jam. Police saw several bullets fall out of the gun."

So let me get this straight, a guy allegedly went for a gun, but it wasn't shooting any bullets, so the cops killed him.

Riiiiight..... that makes perfect sense.
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MaddMatt

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2009, 03:56:53 PM »



So let me get this straight, a guy allegedly went for a gun, but it wasn't shooting any bullets, so the cops killed him.

Riiiiight..... that makes perfect sense.
It was jammed and he was trying to shoot cops, yeah they shot him. What don't you understand? Try to shoot a cop and you will be shot, I think everyone knows that. I would have shot him too, mutherfucken hoodlems!
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Tom!

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 03:58:35 PM »

if the guys gun was jammed and unuseable they could have taken care of him in ways that weren't shooting him. Just because an officer has a badge and a gun doesn't mean he gets to use both.
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MaddMatt

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2009, 04:01:07 PM »

I would have done the same thing. What if the gun un-jams  before you can dis-arm him? That asshole had it coming.
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Mike Pee

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 04:10:28 PM »

They give them tasers, mace, etc. for a reason.
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Forrest

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2009, 04:13:26 PM »

if the guy's gun was jammed and unuseable they could have taken care of him in ways that weren't shooting him. Just because an officer has a badge and a gun doesn't mean he gets to use both.

Cop or otherwise, if a dumbass pulls a gun on me (or you) - I (or you) automatically get permission to kill him.  If his gun jams it is not my responsibility to clear his jam before I off him.

TAZERS?  Are you serious?  A guy is pointing a gun at you and rapidly trying to get it to fire - and you are going to go within 15 feet of him and try to taze him?   Screw that.  Tazers should not be issued to cops anyway - they are too deadly, and too abused.
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Lunch Box

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2009, 04:17:22 PM »

if the guy's gun was jammed and unuseable they could have taken care of him in ways that weren't shooting him. Just because an officer has a badge and a gun doesn't mean he gets to use both.

Cop or otherwise, if a dumbass pulls a gun on me (or you) - I (or you) automatically get permission to kill him.  If his gun jams it is not my responsibility to clear his jam before I off him.

TAZERS?  Are you serious?  A guy is pointing a gun at you and rapidly trying to get it to fire - and you are going to go within 15 feet of him and try to taze him?   Screw that.  Tazers should not be issued to cops anyway - they are too deadly, and too abused.

Yeah, guns are a way better option...
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Tom!

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2009, 04:17:51 PM »

You, as a citizen, and them, as officers, have a different set of rules to apply to.

If it was me in the situation, I would have shot him aswell, as a person when you're safety is at risk you take the natural instinct.
Officers, as agents of the government and servants of the people, have a job more dangerous than almost everyone else, they accept those risks when they take an oath and take a badge, all I am saying is, in a job with inherit risks if they feel like they are truly doing something for the good of the community they would have acted in a way that would have brought a justice system upon the alleged soon-to-be shooter, not shots fired.

"One officer fired several shots, and the man was hit several times, police said. He was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead." Doesn't sound to me that they were just "doing what they needed" a single well placed shot will render someone useless, but alive.
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ire mark

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2009, 04:24:01 PM »

potter's field's alot cheaper than them electric wheelchairs,,,
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Mike Pee

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2009, 04:59:57 PM »

What Tom said.
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Forrest

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2009, 05:49:56 PM »



Yeah, guns are a way better option...

YES - because when you point a gun at an 80 year old lady and pull the trigger you cannot then say "I was just trying to control her".  No, a gun is to KILL. A tazer, well, it's to torture - they hurt you until you comply,  I think that's pretty simply torture.  Hold on:

Quote from: dictonary.com
the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.


SO yeah, tazers are chicken shit. 

Edit: tom, one should never 'shoot to injure'.  You should only shoot when it is necessary to kill.  What would happen if a cop shot a guy who was running away from a crime - but shot him in the leg on purpose?  Is that OK?  Now, what if he missed his leg and shot his head and killed him, but was only trying to injure him.  The jury would ask "if he didn't mean to kill him why did he shoot him."

The purpose of shooting anything is to destroy it.  If you don't want to destroy it then don't shoot it.  If you shoot it, destroy it.

ANd me, a cop hater.... wow I'm defending this guy way too much for not really knowing how it all went down.  The outcome was favorable, though.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 05:55:24 PM by forrestking »
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Tom!

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2009, 06:36:24 PM »

I don't see how you could ever say the outcome was favorable when someone dies. In whose favor is this? The community? Saint Louis has one of the highest murder rates in the nation, more people killing more people, whether it's a cop or a citizen, isn't helping this situation.

The fact that the police could see enough to know that "several bullets" fell out of the gun tells me that they had more than enough time to asses that situation and know that this persons gun was more than likely not firing anytime soon.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to shoot to injure. Especially in this case, where this man literally was not a risk, you could make a perfect claim to shoot to injure. This isn't the wild west, we should not go around ready to kill anything and expect anything to be ready to kill us. Under trained and actively racist officers kill people. Under educated, seeing no way out, being brought into a gang, and people who desire something with out the training or skills to actively achieve them kill people too.

There are ways to fix these problems, but city officials would be overwhelmed if all the citizens were actually educated. What would we ever do with an entire populace that was educated?
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Creativity will always overcome lack of material.
These are challenges I put myself through to keep from sitting still.
Its about doing it the right way once instead of a convoluted way every time you want to make a change.

Garett

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2009, 06:52:55 PM »

Cops are trained to not rush up and subdue someone who has a gun.  You can actually use this to your advantage (super risky) to give yourself an opportunity to run from them.

If the guy would have pulled a gun out and not been actively trying to shoot them, the cops probably would have still shot him though.

It sounds to me like the gun was not jammed, but was simply not firing.  Sounds like he was racking the slide over and over again trying to fire inbetwen.

If it would have been me and the guy tried to shoot at me and all you heard was click... maybe I would have not shot back at that point... but as soon as he starts trying to get his gun fix to try it again... I would have shot.

Cops are people too and they have a right to defend themselves.  From what the story says if you can believe all of that, despite how much I dislike cops, I would have done the same.


Oh and shooting to injure is only something you would see in a movie. In split second times like these there is not enough time to shoot someone in the shoulder once and then wait and see if they are incapacitated.

Pistols are relatively weak weapons. Depending on what you are up against 17 shots later and the guy could still be trying to kill you.
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Mike Pee

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2009, 07:04:34 PM »

Yep, cops are trained to shoot to kill, not maim.  But I do think they should be held to a higher standard than a citizen, but the reality is opposite.

Whatev, cops suck.  This guy probably has a couple brothers and cousins that are now extra geared up to kill a cop if they get a chance.  And so it goes...  Too bad the body count is never even on both sides of the badge.
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Lunch Box

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2009, 08:24:47 PM »

Everyone is missing the fact that he 'allegedly' was reaching for a gun.
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Mike Pee

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2009, 08:14:54 AM »

Just like IRE "allegedly" banged your mom.
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Lunch Box

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2009, 09:25:06 AM »

Just like IRE "allegedly" banged your mom.

I wouldn't call that alleged. I have the footage...
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Tom!

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2009, 10:28:28 AM »

Gross.
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Creativity will always overcome lack of material.
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T-squints

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2009, 12:03:40 PM »

Quote
Too bad the body count is never even on both sides of the badge

Unless you’re talking about a count of zero on both sides then that statement is repulsive.  Law enforcement has a tough job (admittedly many officers make it harder on themselves then it needs to be) virtually every call they respond to at least one party does not wish them there.  They often deal with the lowest denominator of a society under the watchful eye of an all to quick to judge public fueled by a lethargic media quick to use uncorroborated half truths and “unnamed sources” as their primary source. 

We are a society based in law and property rights in order to preserve both a formal division of government must be utilized: law enforcement.  Although no person wishes to ever need the assistance of the police, everyone of us has a dictated group available at all hours of the day and night ready to respond to our own emergency weather that be a gun battle on a street corner, a robbery in progress or cat stuck in a tree police officers are the primary responders.  If you don’t like the police that’s fine, if you wish them dead that’s crazy; in the event your of the latter group, don’t call them, I am sure they would be ok not responding to you when your home is being broken into or your moped is being ridden away or you find yourself in the middle of any other major crisis.  How anyone who would have the balls to call upon a group they have stated they wish more of dead is beyond me.

As for the use of deadly force, police are instructed to meet threats with the level of aggression they are met with: as a police officer you are to use physical force when met with physical force, you are to use non lethal force when met with such and when confronted with deadly force the use of deadly force is allowed.  In short, if you point a gun at an officer you should expect to be shot. The intent of this man was to shoot officers they can fairly assume he is familiar with his weapon and could possibly clear a jam in a matter of seconds thus rendering his weapon lethal once again.  Society dictates that an officer respond to control this threat, the suspect had illustrated his willingness to utilize deadly force and as such officers responded with an appropriate use of force.

The real bitch of all this is that no one “wins”, the officer will live with the fact he took another mans life, the department will no doubt have to defend him and themselves in civil court and the victim has lost his life, his family has lost a loved one and St. Louis records one more officer involved shooting.  It’s sad.

I have always considered myself in the good graces of I.R.E, I hope this does not change that, I choice to respond to a post I found to be out of line and although I am not a friend of police I do recognize their pivotal role in our society.  I look forward to having a spirited discussion regarding this topic over a few beers after a long ride, until then, ride safe.
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Mike Pee

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2009, 12:23:21 PM »

No harm done, this is a friendly debate.

I have never in my life called the police, and never plan to.  Why would I?  So I can have a paper trail of times I've been victimized?  No thanks, I can keep track of that myself.

If there were a way that I could opt-out of dealing with police - a way that I did not have to deal with not only armed criminals, but also armed and armored thugs I'm required by law to pay for their thuggery - then I would have no ill will toward them.  But as it stands, I am subject to laws I did not create, did not opt into, and are enforced by people with guns that have society's permission to kill me if they feel like it.  No, I don't break any serious laws in daily life, I've never been arrested, or even gotten a traffic ticket.  So this is not some grudge I hold because I got screwed by one cop.  I simply feel that my life would be much better if I never had to see them, deal with them, or even think about their existence.
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T-squints

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2009, 01:25:38 PM »

I agree with you, however unless you plan on moving to a moped commune (and it has its appeal) that's not an option.  As for the laws, that's the shitty part about a democracy: elected officials do what they see best (or what their supporters see as best/ most profitable).  Marijuana laws are one of the best illustrations; the vast majority of Americans feel it should not be against the law to use it for medical reasons, a slight majority (still a majority) see it as being OK for recreational use by adults but its still against the law.  Why? I think its because big alcohol and tobacco along with law enforcement officers view it as a threat to their business and those groups pay big money at every level of government to insure it stays out of the hands of law abiding adults....its bullshit

Our elected officials are now more inclined to do what their campain contributors demand them to then what their constituents want, it amounts to paid representation and its a raping of the constitution, additionally it erodes the legitimacy of the entire institution of government.  This relationship between special intrest and elected officials creates laws and policy that fail to serve the public intrest, just as you said, we did not opt into these laws and we may not support them but changing them now would be at the expense of having elected officials bite the hand that feeds them....its total bullshit!

To change it takes such an incredible amount of work its just easier to brake "low" laws and abide by "bigger" ones (ie smoke a little weed in your* house but don't shoot up the house across the street) and hope you*  (and I*) don't get caught braking these "little" laws.

*You and I are used only for illustrative purposes, in no way am I saying you or I brake laws
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Mike Pee

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2009, 02:09:03 PM »

We're on the same page in our view of laws and politicians.

Now the police,  they're volunteering to enforce this BS system through violence, or threat of it.  They're volunteering.

I have no respect for them.  At all.  Period.

So when I see that a cop is shot, I think of it as one less gun that might be pointed at me or someone I care about.  One less magazine of stray bullets that will be sent around my neighborhood.  One less tazer to kill someone with a pacemaker.  One less armored thug in the streets with a gun, a penchant for violence, and a badge to hide behind in court.

Call me a bastard, or heartless if you like.  Perhaps it helps to understand that I don't see any difference between the guy that pulled a gun on three of us last year and the cop that snooped around Mark's yard one time and kept pointing his gun at me (due to poor gun etiquette - not because i was a "suspect").  Either way I'm 2mm of finger-movement from some unwanted metal entering my body.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 02:10:38 PM by mijunkin »
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Mike Pee

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2009, 02:44:40 PM »

PS - Here is a documentation project of mine.  It's very out of date though and missing lots of recent issues.  http://wikilou.com/wiki/index.php?title=Abuses_by_St._Louis_Area_Police
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Dick Gozinya

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2009, 12:16:57 PM »

You should add my parking ticket.
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Mike Pee

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2009, 12:19:21 PM »

Hrm...a list of all the red light cameras in the city would be cool too.  I duno where to find that info, but I bet there is already a list somewheres...

I started a list of people killed by the cops, but couldn't keep up with it.  If anyone wants in on helping document this stuff, lemme know.
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Forrest

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2009, 06:41:56 PM »



Red light cameras are crap, too, but I hear a burning car tire full of gasoline will workably disable them.  I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'...
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shaner bock

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2009, 07:56:03 PM »

i just got a red light ticket yesterday in the mail. do we have to pay these? i'd rather spend $100 to know for sure that i dont have any warrants in the city...
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Forrest

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2009, 07:01:24 AM »

Since when is "the mail" proper service?

Is it a civil violation? In most states it is a civil violation because that is easier for them to prove. 

If it was a traffic ticket issued to a specific person then the *persecution* would have to prove that YOU were driving the car.

On the civil violation they are actually citing the registered owner of the car.  they are saying "You own a car that went through a red light and here's a fine".  THat is a lot easier to prove.  1) you register the car so they know you own. 2) they have a picture of it going through a red light. It's very similar to a parking ticket in that even if your friend was driving the car, the owner has to pay.

I don't think they put warrants out for civil stuff, they just put a hold on your vehicle registration.

It's a money grab. The city is poor and the yellow lights are getting shorter.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 09:54:13 AM by forrestking »
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Lunch Box

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Re: shooting last night?
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2009, 07:55:08 AM »

There was a big article in the newspaper last year about not having to pay them. I figure if I ever got one, I would just not pay it, and if I ever got busted for it deal with it then.
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